E14: Ambassador Sam Brownback - In Conversation with Benedict Rogers
Just a few days before he leaves office, ahead of the inauguration of the new US President, it was an honour to have US Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom Sam Brownback as a guest on our interview series.
Ambassador Brownback has long been a champion of human rights. As a Senator for 15 years from 1996-2011 he was a leading voice on China, North Korea, Burma, Sudan and many other international human rights causes.
Nominated as Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom in 2017, he took up this office in 2018 and has been a tireless defender of freedom of religion or belief for peoples of all faiths and none throughout the world.
In 2008 he ran for President of the United States, and from 2011-2018 he served as Governor of his home state of Kansas.
It is not often that we have a guest who could be addressed as ‘Senator’, ‘Governor’ and ‘Ambassador’.
In this episode, Ambassador Brownback discussed with our Chief Executive Benedict Rogers his motivations in championing freedom, his concerns about the dismantling of human rights in Hong Kong, the crackdown on religious freedom in China and the role of the international community.
“I am a huge fan of Hong Kong,” Ambassador Brownback began by saying. “I love Hong Kong. I have been there a number of times, and I am just so saddened to see what’s taking place there now. It’s such a fabulous place.”
At a time when democracy and freedom around the world are under such pressure, Ambassador Brownback described his own life-long commitment to these values.
“I’m the son of a farmer in the middle of America, and these are not things that were front and centre on my plate growing up. But my mother grew up on the property where John Brown would stay when he was in Kansas prior to the civil war, when we had slavery in the United States. He would feel the chains of the people that were incarcerated and would fight against it. That’s my heritage from Kansas – this is the state that started the fight over slavery. It’s a great heritage. I am living off the old wells that others dug before me on standing for freedom.”
On the dismantling of freedoms in Hong Kong in total violation of an international treaty, the Sino-British Joint Declaration, Ambassador Brownback said: “It is an incredible flaunting of an international agreement … It is unbelievable. How can the world community deal with the Chinese government if they are willing to flaunt such a basic, clear agreement?”
He added that the Chinese Communist Party regime’s behaviour “really hurts China’s future”. Hong Kong was a model of “how you have an open society within China … orderly, productive, outward-looking and it stands for human rights – for people’s basic, fundamental human rights.” So, after the Chinese regime’s dismantling of Hong Kong’s freedoms in breach of an international agreement, Ambassador Brownback asks “how is any agreement going to be upheld by the Chinese government? It’s an extremely destructive thing that’s taking place. The destruction doesn’t end with Hong Kong. It’s very harmful to China’s future. China’s future lies with freedom – it’s the natural state of humankind is to be free, and they’re just stomping on their own future.”
In regard to recent arrests in Hong Kong, Ambassador Brownback described the national security law as a “lie”. He said “Hong Kong knows how to conduct elections” and that Hong Kong should hold direct elections for Chief Executive.
In a moving personal moment, Ambassador Brownback described how one of his children was adopted from China, and he made clear that his criticism is of the Chinese Communist Party regime, not the Chinese people.
“The Chinese people are an amazingly accomplished, gifted, talented people. The Communist Party with the way they are acting now are holding back these amazing people from a brighter future. … This authoritarianism … and flaunting of international laws … will hurt the future of the Chinese people. I hope the people themselves embrace their future which is with freedom.”
On religious freedom in Hong Kong, Ambassador Brownback said it is clear that the national security law is having an impact. “Churches aren’t going to be able to practice freely … they’re going to keep watching over their shoulder,” he said. He outlined concerns about surveillance, artificial intelligence and Internet controls in Hong Kong which he predicts “will be deployed in new and draconian repression in Hong Kong ….. This is the future of repression.”
The discussion also covered religious freedom in China, which he said is “terrible … cutting-edge” and the worst since the Cultural Revolution. “If you ping them on a cell phone you get thrown into the same pool with them and you get isolated from the Internet, or from education opportunities, or from participating in the economy or from apartments”. The crackdown is “broad based”, he emphasized. “It’s against the Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Falun Gong, it’s everybody. Communism just has trouble with religion.”
We discussed US policy, international collaboration and the future. In response to the idea that China would open up and reform politically, as it expands economically, he was clear: “We were wrong. It didn’t happen. That past tactic did not work, it was harmful, and the Communists have used it to gain power.”
Policy efforts are bipartisan. Ambassador Brownback quoted President-elect Joe Biden’s recognition of Uyghur genocide, and cited his own work with House of Representatives Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi on these issues.
“This is a fight that the Communists have picked – and they will not win it,” he said.
And his message to Hong Kongers is clear: “The people of Hong Kong now – you’re in a tough fight … But you’re going to be able to stand up to your children and grandchildren in the future and say ‘we fought for it and it was tough but we won’. What an honour to be a warrior in a very difficult battle. But you’re there, don’t give up, the world is watching, we’re praying for you and we’re behind you.”